Curse

Theos · Sep 01, 2005, 03:23 PM // 15:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rey Lentless

I'd rather ether prodigy be worth using, instead of just making ether nenewal crap too.

If ER had the same drawback as EA, that being working only on ele skills, I would not see the skill be bad, its true much of the ele lines suck, but you can still spam several spells. Perhaps if this was to happen the ele lines would really need a buff to them.

Dzan · Sep 01, 2005, 03:28 PM // 15:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mysterial

By definition, a balanced environment contains no 'good' skills (or all 'good' skills, depending on how you choose to look at it), so... yes.

Obviously you don't know the first thing about balance, but you do know that if more than two people use a build in one day its clearly overpowered. Go read the M:tg articles that are frequently posted relating to why there has to be "good" skills and why there has to be "bad" skills.

Numa Pompilius · Sep 01, 2005, 03:41 PM // 15:41

Quote:

Fixed Ether Renewal #2 {Elite} - Enchantment Spell

For 10 seconds, each time you cast a spell, you gain 20-60% of the
energy cost of the spell back, plus another 15% of the spell cost for
each enchantment on you.

/Signed.

Martina · Sep 01, 2005, 03:51 PM // 15:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by timmo567

Sounds great to me. So sick of smiters.... (I'm tempted to make one, but I'm not really into pressing 1, 2, 1, 2, 1, 2, 1, 2, 1, 2, 1, 2 over and over, doesn't really appeal to me)

so.. you want to modify an elementalist spell because of what it does to/with a monk spell? better idea.. have Ether Renewal only work with elemental spells

Mysterial · Sep 01, 2005, 05:09 PM // 17:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dzan

Obviously you don't know the first thing about balance, but you do know that if more than two people use a build in one day its clearly overpowered. Go read the M:tg articles that are frequently posted relating to why there has to be "good" skills and why there has to be "bad" skills.

Maybe you should pay more attention. You asked if that was the "ideal" environment... not if that environment was attainable.

Anyway, back on topic. IMO "balancing" skills by limiting them to a certain class only implies one (or both) of two things:
-The skill is overpowered
-The class's skills are underpowered

Therefore, although it is correct that making Ether Renewal work on Elementalist skills only would fix its usage, I think the better overall solution for game balance would be to adjust the power of Ether Renewal and/or Elementalist skills in general.

Dzan · Sep 01, 2005, 05:45 PM // 17:45

Elementalists are rather underpowered actually. If you took away E/Mo smiters you'd see very few Eles in the tombs, and almost none of them would be offensive.

Balanced does not mean that every skill has to be equal in power, it just means that a good ranger has to be as useful as a good warrior or a good Ele etc. To keep the M:tG analogy going, there are always going to be good decks. There are always going to be 2 or 3 decks that are the "tier 1" decks at anytime. Same as in Guild Wars. There is always going to be a few builds that are flavors of the month at any given time. That is the nature of the game, and people who complain about every one of them are absurd.

There is only a balance issue when there is a build that is so powerful that there are no other tier 1 builds. And not only are there no other tier 1 builds, its so powerful that build made specifically to shut it down can't beat it often. E/Mo smiting does not fall into this category. There are plenty of other viable builds that are just as good, not necesarily as easy to use, but still just as potent. And it is easy to shut down. Diversion + Rend Enchantments and its over. A build that has two people using Diversion and Rend will only lose to Smiters if the Smiters are head and shoulders better players than they are, in which case they deserved to win anyway.

Nature's Renewal had to be nerfed because it warped the environment to the point where you had to either play it yourself, and/or not use enchantments or hexes of your own. It forced people to use and bring skills that were only their for the purpose of living under Nature's Renewal. Smiting, however, does not do that. It forces people to use... Diversion and Rend Enchantments. Those are two skills that should have been in your builds anyway. Thus, the metagame is not warped.

I get the impression from a lot of people, including you, that your ideal vision of the game is 8v8 battles using combos no more complex than Fire Attunement and Fire spells. Any synergy between your primary and secondary profession is off limits as well.

Personally, I will be all for nerfing Renewal... when it gets to the point where you HAVE to play Renewal in every Tombs build just to be successful at all.

rii · Sep 01, 2005, 05:58 PM // 17:58

@ mysterial, the problem isnt that its ele overpowered + ele underpowered = balance, its that its being mixed with already strong smiting spells to beat the living hell out of everyone. Perhaps just allow it as ele enchants and ele spells that trigger it? then no smiting abuse, and itll be er, aura and attunement, which is only the three enchants. + flare spamming, and then when youve used up half your skill bar with that you can get some nukes. THAT might balance eles some. But im not doing the maths, im too lazy.

IxChel · Sep 01, 2005, 08:07 PM // 20:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dzan

Elementalists are rather underpowered actually. If you took away E/Mo smiters you'd see very few Eles in the tombs, and almost none of them would be offensive.

I agree. I was actually trying to think of how I could make Ether Renewal
more useful to Fire/Water/Earth elementalists while reducing its abuse
from el/mo smiters.

It matters little if Ether Renewal abusing build has a corresponding
counter build; that's not relevant -- just about everything has a counter.
What's relevant is that ER gives 3-5x as much energy as any other elite
energy management skill out there -- this is what is out-of wack.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dzan

I get the impression from a lot of people, including you, that your ideal vision of the game is 8v8 battles using combos no more complex than Fire Attunement and Fire spells. Any synergy between your primary and secondary profession is off limits as well.

I'm certain you can re-phrase your point without the personal attack.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rii

the problem [is that ER is] being mixed with already strong smiting spells to beat the living hell out of everyone. Perhaps just allow it as ele enchants and ele spells that trigger it? then no smiting abuse, and itll be er, aura and attunement, which is only the three enchants. + flare spamming, and then when youve used up half your skill bar with that you can get some nukes. THAT might balance eles some. But im not doing the maths, im too lazy.

This may be a good suggestion, but as Dazn was saying (mud-sliinging
aside) limiting skills in this manner restricts the creative freedom of build
construction, and therefore reduces diversity. I like how ER is usable with
spells from any skill line -- and I'd rather it stay that way rather than being
shakled to just elemental skills. However, once that energy is usable by
any skill -- ER must now be ballanced with Energy Drain and Offering of
Blood.

Grimpaw · Sep 01, 2005, 09:03 PM // 21:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by IxChel

Fixed Ether Renewal #2 {Elite} - Enchantment Spell

For 10 seconds, each time you cast a spell, you gain 20-60% of the energy cost of the spell back, plus another 15% of the spell cost for each enchantment on you.

Make it "15% of the spell cost for each other enchantment on you" and I'm sold. I could live with 20% then too.

Chev of Hardass · Sep 01, 2005, 09:13 PM // 21:13

I have used Ether Renewal as a smiting ele on several occasions. It is sick how little health or energy issues there are while using this skill. I have moved on to more, and less, creative, but far more fun builds.

Right now I feel Ether renewal is useless for the Elementalist since they do not rely on enchantments. Well, some people use attunement, but enchantments are not the bread and butter of the elementalist line. How about changing Ether Renewal to not have anything to do with enchantments, but affect Exaustion.

Perhaps 1/3 faster recovery from exaustion?

Or increase the duration of the skill by 2 and have it only give energy while casting spells that cost more than 10 energy.

Maybe something like

Ether Renewal: Enchantment Spell, cost 10, duration, 60 seconds, for each for each spell cast costing 10-15% of max energy you gain 30-50% of the cost of that spell back and 100% of the energy cost is returned as health. While effected by this enchantment exaustion recovery is sped up by 1/8-1/3.

Boy those numbers are off the cuff, but I think a setup like this would be more geared towards the "true" Elementalist.

stumpy · Sep 01, 2005, 09:20 PM // 21:20

you want ether to recover from exhaustion too??? your description would give meteor shower, maelstrom, and earthquake users very happy. I'm sorry but it doesn't seem like a viable suggestion. Think of the potential outcome ... you now will have a bunch of E/Me arcane echoing showers, quakes and maelstrom without a care in the world ... heck ... people would start using obsidian flame spikes like candy if they could simply use the skill to recover from exhaustion 33% faster ...

its different I'll give you that ... and it would definately still see play ...

IxChel · Sep 01, 2005, 09:47 PM // 21:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grimpaw

Make it "15% of the spell cost for each other enchantment on you" and I'm sold. I could live with 20% then too.

Nice contribution; thanks. This also makes its effect a bit easier to
explain. Let's look at the numbers. When you do this, 15% isn't
sufficient, you need 20% or its nerfed too much.

Fixed Ether Renewal #3 {Elite} - Enchantment Spell

For 10 seconds, each time you cast a spell, you gain 40-60% of the
energy cost of the spell back, plus another 20% of the spell cost for
every other enchantment on you.

To help visualize the proposal, here is a chart that assumes 50en will
be spent during the 10s period and that the energy gain is averaged
over the 30 second cooldown period.

Code:

 # of ench --  percent -- energy-per-second
      0         60%         0.66
      1         80%         1.00
      2         100%       1.33
      3         120%       1.66
      4         140%       2.00

      ((50 * (.80 + N*.10))-10)/30

So, in this case, if you cast ER, you're going to average .66 energy per
second; which is a touch weaker than Energy Drain. If you have one
additional enchancement, you bring it up to the level of Mantra of Recall.
Two or more additional enchantments -- and hence a greater risk of
having them rended, is rewarded by the equivalent of 1pip over the
30 second period. I kinda like 20% per enchantment, since it amounts
to 1pip per enchantment, which is basically the cost of maintaining the
enchantment. This also happens to be about the same as Blessed
Signet; only this skill doesn't require that you're using maintained
enchantments (the classic difference between a elite and non-elite is
the interaction /w other skills).

Regardless, this is more-or-less in the ballpark. I'm sure Arena.Net can
tweak the numbers to make themselves happy.

zehly · Sep 01, 2005, 10:24 PM // 22:24

Yes. This is ideal. Nerf everything. If everything is nerfed, then there is peace and harmony

Rey Lentless · Sep 01, 2005, 11:37 PM // 23:37

I think a lot of the ele elites are underpowered and eles themselves are rather unimpressive.

While I do think ether renewal is underpowered skill, I don't think that it should be balanced with eles in their current state. Things like ether prodigy are in dire need of a buff and the overall dps of eles is not where it should be in comparison to other profs.

I think eles are the class that needs the most attention atm, and I hope overused skills like ether renewal aren't nerfed in comparison to other ele stuff.. because the prof as a whole just isn't what it should be.

heist23 · Sep 02, 2005, 12:46 AM // 00:46

i haven't read the whole thread because i'm kind of low on time, so here's my suggestion.

increase the time limit to 15 seconds,

Remove the "for each enchantment" clause (like either ensign or scaphism said, i'm not sure) and instead "for each spell you cast". now, i understand that this makes renewal A) kind of a buffed Aura of Restoration, and
B) favor faster casting/spammable spells.

i don't know how to solve problem b as of yet, i'm thinking of a solution. as an added nerf, decrease the amount of energy gained from 1..4 to 1..3, and health 5...17 to 5..15.

seeing as most smiting spells don't have an instant recharge (then again, some prot spells have near-instant), this might make eles shift over to either protection or just regular eles. i don't know.

Dualinity · Sep 02, 2005, 06:19 AM // 06:19

guild wars folks always talk about "not 1 build cant beat all" and that is true, if u think Ether Renewal is too good, make an anti-build and u should have no problem....every good build has its weaknesses

ElderAtronach · Sep 02, 2005, 07:26 AM // 07:26

When the game is at a "one build can beat most" stage, that's when people should be concerned. It's stopped being rock paper scissors and become rock rock bigger rock.

Red Locust · Sep 02, 2005, 07:47 AM // 07:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dualinity

guild wars folks always talk about "not 1 build cant beat all" and that is true, if u think Ether Renewal is too good, make an anti-build and u should have no problem....every good build has its weaknesses

Easier said than done, my friend.

BTW Ix, I love those suggestions. At 4 enchantments, getting 2 energy/s. is equivalent to 6 arrows of energy regen, which is still considerably more than you get with most other energy management options, but relies on very specific conditions. Much better than the current 60 arrows of regen

Dualinity · Sep 02, 2005, 09:50 AM // 09:50

yeah well it is really good build, but i am sure there will be more builds that can beat it

Thomasuwoo · Sep 02, 2005, 10:10 AM // 10:10

The problem i have with it is the HP regen. We'd be able to just kill them if it wasn't. Aura of restoration as a % atatched to the regen while ether has a straight up bonus. Regaurdless of the energy cost.

Our counter build runs Rend, Chiblians, Drain Enchantment, Punsihing shot, Distractin shot, Leach signet, Power Drain, Energy Drain, savage slash, disrupting blow, concussion shot, choking gas And natures renewal. All that and we can take one vs one builds fine. The problems start to arise when there is more then one team. We only just scrape through on the interups, damage and drains one a one vs one. Chib is great when you get smite ganked but it sakes 5 secconds longer to recharge then balths. So we can only rely on that for one assult. All the drains in the world don't stop them with ether renewal so we rend one, gas the other and try and get the wars on the third. But our wars can't kill the target when it has ether renewal.
We've tried a full focus on one with hamstring and sprints but unless we can get him down quickly the wars carrying the balth wise up to what the necro is doing and tear him to pieces. Meanwhile the other 2 smites just renewl the balth and the pain continues.
We've run into builds using metor shower and other slow casting nukes and we can beat them no problems even with natures cause of their casting times.

Honestly if the HP regen was taken out or nerfed I could deal with the mana problems.